A changing of the guard

From the team

A changing of the guard

Soldiers from the National Guards Unit of Bulgaria being relieved by their replacements during a guard mounting ceremony

Last April, Smallbones said he was preparing to step down as The Signpost's editor-in-chief. This month, he did... we appreciate his hard work and dedication over the last three years, and hope to keep seeing his ~~~~ around The Signpost.

This April, two guys nominated themselves as replacements, and in May the discussion was closed after unanimous support. It's official: these two guys are now the Editors-in-Chief. But what? Huh? Zuh??

We are the illustrious EpicPupper and JPxG. We're Wikimedians who have both written and edited a lot of Signpost articles, and are stoked to try and hold this thing together. In our new capacity as co-EiCs, we will be assisted by Bri, Ixtal, and Smallbones, the fantastic editors of The Signpost — as well as our contributors and readers.

Our plan is to keep doing what we've been doing: serving the Wikimedia movement by spotlighting the stories of our diverse readership. As a major publication on the English Wikipedia, The Signpost offers an opportunity for people to be heard who otherwise wouldn't be. We aim to advocate for free knowledge and access, and help build a positive community culture. We also aim to publish an absolute banger of a newspaper, which seems likely this month (with a whopping 25 articles).

Along with reviewing previous suggestions, we've identified potential action points in moving toward these goals. These include:

increasing our social media reach through other channels such as Reddit, TikTok, and WT.social
creating a "Signpost Guide" to help readers navigate each issue by filtering by tags or categories
creating a scavenger hunt game for every issue as a fun, engaging way to explore The Signpost
applying for user group status
creating a non-editing role account as an easy way to email both EiCs
making The Signpost's templates and technical implementation more accessible, faster to load on slow connections, responsive, easier to use, and more compliant with MediaWiki best practices

We have already made some improvements, such as creating a short URL for easier navigation (signpost.news).

We invite the community to provide feedback on these proposals and the project at large in our 2022 Reader Survey, open now. We hope that we will be able to conduct one annually. We immensely appreciate your feedback and thank you for your time.

Finally, we would also like to take this opportunity to invite more community members to join The Signpost team. Although many of our segments have active contributors, our writers need rest from The Signpost from time to time, and redundancy is much appreciated. We are looking for volunteers to help us with the following segments:

From the archives republishes articles from older editions of The Signpost, usually based on current events, anniversaries or holidays. The segment is intended to highlight interesting or important parts of the Wikimedia movement's history.
Tips and tricks is a section that republishes from the Tips of the Day project, providing useful tidbits of information.
On the bright side articles showcase good news throughout difficult times.
The Discussion report aims to provide a summary of the most significant ongoing discussions and polls of community-wide relevance.
Essay republishes essays from Wikipedia and the Wikimedia movement that spotlight important issues. Humorous essays are generally republished in Humor.
Our Special report column always needs submissions! Do you have an article idea that doesn't fit into any of the other categories? Let us know, and we can publish it in this column. Alternative headings for special reports include Community view, Forum, or In focus.
Op-eds published are always the subject of much discussion. The Signpost wishes to cover a wide range of perspectives and as such is always looking for more contributors to express their views on current community issues.
The Traffic report reports on the most popular articles on Wikipedia during the last publication period, measured in page views. The Signpost is specifically looking for volunteers to assist in also reporting on most-edited pages in this segment.
The WikiProject report reports on the progress and background of selected WikiProjects.
Galleries are photographic sections containing high-quality images in a curated, topical form. These often are selected based on current events, anniversaries, or holidays.
Interviews are interviews with Wikimedia contributors.
Featured content covers recently-featured content on the English Wikipedia, including Featured Articles, Featured Lists, and Featured Pictures.
Humor column providing light-hearted entertainment to the community. Often, this takes place in the form of republishing humorous essays, or puzzles such as crosswords.
The Technology report contains news and developments in the technical platforms used by the Wikimedia projects.
News and notes contains major internal news, presenting broad coverage of goings-on within the Wikimedia movement.
In the media publishes instances of media coverage of Wikipedia.
Recent research reports on academic studies done on Wikimedia or with Wikimedia in mind, similar to In the media.
The Arbitration report summarizes ongoing or recently concluded arbitration cases on the English Wikipedia.
Serendipity often covers matters that do not fit into any other column in a light-hearted matter. It is similar to Op-eds and the Special report column.

In sum, The Signpost always needs a hand with publication. If you can, please volunteer by sending us a message here. Thank you so much for volunteering!

The Signpost will continue to inform, entertain, and publish for years to come.

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In this issue

29 May 2022 (all comments)

From the team

Discuss this story

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= 2022 Reader Survey =

Hello, and welcome to the first Signpost Reader Survey! We hope to incorporate feedback we receive into actionable, direct changes that reflect the state of our diverse readership. Please feel free to treat this page as a talk page; all questions are optional, and the regular talk page guidelines (signing messages, civility, etc) apply. Thank you for your participation!

How would you rate your experiences with The Signpost, on a scale of 1-10?

8/10 Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
9/10 Dutchy45 (talk) 03:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
10/10 Lectrician1 (talk) 04:02, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
9/10 Applodion (talk) 08:53, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
8/10 Nosebagbear (talk) 12:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
8/10 PAC2 (talk) 20:14, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
9/10 Clovermoss (talk) 05:08, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
9/10 Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
5/10 Andrew🐉(talk) 09:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
9/10 Tube·of·Light 11:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
10/10 --ssr (talk) 14:22, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Optionally, leave a comment on why you gave the above answer.

Still room for improvement, but that will come in time. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When I started reading The Signpost I was often impressed by the quality of the "main articles" (op-ed, special report and such), to the point that I wondered why Smallbones wasn't headhunted by some "real" newspaper. By now I've come to expect the high standard. The new co-editors-in-chief have got some very large shoes to fill. Dutchy45 (talk) 03:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I love the informalness in content as the Wikipedia community itself is inherently informal. The Signpost is not a typical formal newspaper and it shouldn't be. I also love the variety of content and incorporation of content directly from the community like featured pieces, community work, and featured articles and media. Lectrician1 (talk) 04:04, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Usually the content is of high quality, but there's a recurring rate of something significantly problematic (for the Signpost's nature) that would drop it a point, and then it's just a matter of frequency. Nosebagbear (talk) 12:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A hugely useful bit of Wikipedia. I love that it's not afraid to express opinions, but equally doesn't have an agenda to push. Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Neither especially good or bad; just middling. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd like more content involving interesting facts. Tube·of·Light 11:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

How likely are you to recommend The Signpost to another editor, on a scale of 1-10?

10. I'm a firm believer that all editors should be aware of The Signpost even if they are not interested in reading it. On its relaunch in April 2018 I was surprised at the amount of enthusiasm for it. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
10 I think there should be a small note on the main page of WP when a new Signpost is available. I agree with Kudpung that all editors should be aware of The Signpost. Based on the time between me starting to edit and discovering The Signpost, there's room for improvement there. Dutchy45 (talk) 03:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
10. I too think the signpost should be on the main page. With more exposure the publication could possibly become biweekly which would be awesome.
10. The Signpost's news related to the insides of Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation as well as their interesting pieces on media reception, sciences, interviews, etc. are something I look forward to every month. Applodion (talk) 08:53, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
10. It's by far the easiest way to keep your finger on the pulse for those who are short on time (like me!). Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
1. It's already quite prominent and so needs no bush. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
10/10 Tube·of·Light 11:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
10 - Amazing work guys. Happy Editing--IAm Chaos 19:14, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
10 --ssr (talk) 14:22, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Which columns of The Signpost have you read?

All - always. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've read them all. Now I only glance at columns like trafic report, featured content and news from the WMF Dutchy45 (talk) 03:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alllll! Lectrician1 (talk) 04:06, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I always read everything except featured content and traffic report. Nosebagbear (talk) 12:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Usually things that might impact what I do - so the discussion report and technology report are must-reads every time for me. Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I usually skim them all. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I used to read them all, but nowadays I only go through about 60-70% of the reports. Tube·of·Light 11:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What are your thoughts on each of the following proposals?

Increasing social media reach - which channels do you use?

I have never used social media, but it would probably be a good idea to increase the reach of The Signpost Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm on Reddit (if you want to call that social media). I've gone off Facebook, only use that to log on websites.
Social media runs the risk off WP discussions being debated away from WP. I once read an article in The Signpost that mentioned that, which I do not like at all. On the other end; It is the way of the world now. So a double edged sword maybe? Dutchy45 (talk) 03:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I use Reddit and Discord. I'd recommend just posting to r/Wikipedia and people will likely crosspost from there which could really help with exposure. Lectrician1 (talk) 04:08, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'd oppose such - I don't want to risk the Signpost chasing social media focus rather than on-wiki effort. Nosebagbear (talk) 12:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm on several social media platforms but I'd agree with Nosebagbear, I'd prefer the Signpost to stay right where it is and for any promotion of it to be on-wiki. Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are too many such channels and it seems best to focus on the one that we all have in common, right here. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm in favour of this, and I'm on Reddit. Tube·of·Light 11:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
General oppose - keep wiki things onwiki. Happy Editing--IAm Chaos 19:15, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Creating a filtering tool for articles

Probably not necessary; a solution looking for a problem? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Could be cool. I was thinking you could make Wikidata items for Signpost articles and then you could have really powerful filtering and tagging. I'd be willing to help. Lectrician1 (talk) 04:09, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Don't think it's needed - it looks like most of us read everything or nearly everything. Nosebagbear (talk) 12:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The table of contents works fine for me, as does the wiki search. I don't see a need for anything more. Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Meh, I'm indifferent to this one. Tube·of·Light 11:08, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Creating a scavenger hunt

No idea Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think people would do it. Not worth the time to setup. Lectrician1 (talk) 04:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Feels like significant effort to establish, wouldn't draw in more readers beyond those we already have. Nosebagbear (talk) 12:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Might be worthwhile to see if people engage with it for an issue or two, but it's not really something that I'm interested in. Clovermoss (talk) 05:07, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds like fun but probably more effort than it's worth. Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Applying for user group status

Why? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you mean meta user group, sounds goodish. Not really sure what the significance or benefits are though. Lectrician1 (talk) 04:13, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What are the benefits of doing so? Does this not risk amending the control routes for the Signpost? Nosebagbear (talk) 12:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As per the others, not really sure what this is trying to achieve. Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What would this accomplish? Happy Editing--IAm Chaos 19:15, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Creating a non-editing role account to email both EiCs

Why? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's up to you all if you feel your current communication setup is not sufficient. Lectrician1 (talk) 04:14, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you think it would help, seems logical. Nosebagbear (talk) 12:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I can see the benefits but we don't like shared accounts. A shared EiC email address might be a better solution. Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Does this need community support? I mean whatever works for yall. Happy Editing--IAm Chaos 19:16, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Would you be willing to help contribute to The Signpost?

Certainly Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't write. I just do Wikidata. So if Signpost => Wikidata, I'll certainly help ;) Lectrician1 (talk) 04:15, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I might be interested in contributing to On The Bright Side again. Clovermoss (talk) 05:05, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I can't commit time on a regular basis but the occasional one-off article might be doable if/when I have something interesting to say! Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, if I have something particular to say. Not interested in just filling space. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any suggestions for The Signpost?

Many Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Occasionaly I've seen an obituary section in The Signpost. I've read those with interest. Maybe make that a regular monthly column. Dutchy45 (talk) 03:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Without wishing to sound flippant, I would hope there's not enough material for obituaries to be a monthly column. — Bilorv (talk) 15:46, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Get Signpost on the Main page. Also, Traffic Report is really long and should maybe be broken up or each week in a collapsible container. Lectrician1 (talk) 04:17, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure about the main page, but including it in the standard welcome notices is probably worthwhile. Waggers TALK 14:28, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Interviews of editors, functionaries, WMF staff and partners. Andrew🐉(talk) 09:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

General comments

Welcome to the new EiCs! I'm glad to see the strong passion in this editorial. The short URL is great—for instance, you'd share this article as signpost.news/2022-05-29/From_the_team. — Bilorv (talk) 22:16, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Congratulations to the new team on getting their first issue out. I am only too aware what a huge amount of work and commitment it requires. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 23:07, 29 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Welcome and congratulations to the new EiCs! —Ganesha811 (talk) 00:01, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The short URL could use some inprovements. It should redirect to en.wikipedia instead of en.m.wikipedia. Additionally, it should support HTTPS. --Firestar464 (talk) 02:08, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @Firestar464! Thanks, we're working on these :) 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 02:10, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The new team have taken on a huge task. Best wishes on fullfilling it. Dutchy45 (talk) 03:45, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"the first Signpost Reader Survey" - a similar Signpost reader survey was already run back in 2015 and might have been worth reviewing before launching the current one. The results were e.g. discussed in this editorial, and one (heavily selection-biased) conclusion from the survey remains highlighted on the Signpost's "About" page as of today. Regards, HaeB (talk) 06:41, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You only had unanimous support because I chose not to publicly voice my opposition to Pupper. The hijacking of the talk page does not bode well. (I am not watching this page, so please ping me if you want my attention.) Chris Troutman (talk) 21:30, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hello @Chris troutman, thanks for providing your feedback. I'm sorry that I didn't have your support in the process; I would always welcome feedback or criticism. I was wondering what you meant by "the hijacking of the talk page"? Thank you, 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 22:46, 30 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Signpost does not run reader surveys on the talk page of piece in the newsletter. You hijacked that space meant for reader comments. Chris Troutman (talk) 00:01, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I considered multiple options, but concluded that this was the easiest to access. "General comments" is intended for comments of the article. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 00:47, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Chris troutman: Pinging you since you requested it. EpicPupper did write another comment. Clovermoss (talk) 05:36, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think that in the heat of the enthusiasm, a couple of things got overlooked and familiarity with the process was not 100%, but one or two good decisions were made. When Bri and I took over in 2018, it was a relaunch, but it went off quite smoothly. Chris troutman provided some excellent support and without his help it would not have been possible. We looked into the archives to see what had been done before and how it had been done. We created a lot of additional content 'columns' in order to encourage new contributors to fill them, but we didn't actually change the format even if the style went more towards a magazine. Possibly what the new team has done in their eagerness was to change too much too soon, and like a new broom, make a clean sweep, but that is not a criticism - keeping The Signpost going is the most important goal. That watchlist notice needs to go up though. It was an idea of ours which brought us a significant number of new readers. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Kudpung, thank you for your input. I'd appreciate if you read my previous comments; I explained that the watchlist messages need to be added by an administrator, and that we've requested that it be added. This process takes time; we hope that it will be fast every issue, but this is not a guarantee. To my knowledge, none of the active contributors to The Signpost are administrators.

I would also appreciate elaboration on what you describe as chang[ing] too much too soon; please explain the changes that we have made that you consider to be too soon. To my knowledge, the only change that we have implemented is creating the short URL signpost.news.

Thank you for your advocacy. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 17:23, 31 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the watchlist messages need to be added by an administrator - it was my idea (Kudpung puffs his chest out) and I was an admin at the time. I won't elaborate on the good things you did, lest I get sanctioned again. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:24, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A good exercise is to go through the archives of every issue since March 2018 and see which columns received the most reader comments, how apt they were (some are blatant PA, while the majority made excellent suggestions), and consider what it would be like if The Signpost were able to be selective about the readers' comment that get published, just like any other neswpaper or blog. That's the problem with The Signpost , it's neither one thing nor the other: it is expected by hardliners to kowtow to Wikipedia mainspace rules, but somehow produce interesting and compelling investigative journalism. I don't really know what is the most precarious - being an admin or being a Signpost E-in-C., the worst is probably being both (diffs available); for example, it's E-in-Cs and regular contributors all being male, The Signpost can't even mention gender related issues without being accused of misogyny. Time the newspaper did what the WMF did: poopooed its own MediaWiki and went to Wordpress. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 07:44, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Kudpung: I made a sortable table of the longest Signpost talk pages -- a veritable rogues' gallery. One can only imagine what it must have been like to post in some of these! jp×g 20:41, 1 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

JPxG: All you need to do now is read them all! (if you haven't done so already). It's certainly a useful table for examining what changes can be considered for the future of the periodical, and it's something EpicPupper can use if he has time between his preparation for the next issue. At least starting with this one which was the moment when The Signpost had hit the most severe existential crisis in its history. One can only imagine what it must have been like to post in some of these!: you've only been editing seriously for barely 2 years and although you've done an amazing amount of very high quality work in that time, catching up on the history of The Signpost's is probably quite a daunting task.

The comments on the articles in the issues that have been published since Smallbones and Bri ensured The Signpost's continuation have not been free of controversy (nor were they during my short tenure as de facto temporary E-in-C); for most of that time since they took the relay however, I have been semi-retired from Wikipedia. The comments are nevertheless some of the most revealing, and some have created quite a storm including the forced deletion of some articles or severe post-publication tinkering. I'm sure Bri and Smallbones have thrown their arms up in despair more than once. It's interesting to note that many of the detractors have not been regular contributors to Wikipedia, and indeed have also rarely edited since that time either. Some simply appeared to have an axe to grind and while at times they might have enjoyed some respect from the community, while complaining about The Signpost journalism they think nothing of resorting to the lowest of sarcasm and PA. Interesting reading nevertheless because it demonstrates the contrast between the policy 'hardliners' and those who believe that anything goes in the newspaper's readers' comments sections, and with impunity - in much the same way as what makes RfA such a toxic process. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 01:33, 2 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome to the new and thanks to the old editors-in-chief. Your work is truly valuable and is appreciated. Keep up the good work! SchreiberBike | ⌨ 15:08, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to make "Russian Signpost" called Vikivestnik. It's really a hard job! Please all Wikipedians appreciate Signpost very much, it's a great gift that you have it. It is VERY important for preparing good editors that make good Wikipedia. --ssr (talk) 14:26, 24 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Guys"?

"This April, two guys nominated themselves as replacements, and in May the discussion was closed after unanimous support. It's official: these two guys are now the Editors-in-Chief."
Guys. Really? You could not find another word in the vocabulary except a gendered-slang that can't tell the difference between male and female persons? How about using "gals" instead? * Whaaat? Ridiculous! * Because, of course, that would be an affront to the Wikipedia boys club. Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 03:07, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am not sure what this post means. Do you mean you'd prefer if we used a term that was more gendered, or less? jp×g 01:00, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Less. How about ... editors? As in: "two editors" and "these two editors". Pyxis Solitary (yak). L not Q. 05:12, 6 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Pyxis Solitary and JPxG: Been a few months, but: I can appreciate where Pyxis is coming from, but at the same time I'll point out that there is technically no inherent gender implication to "guys". Or there doesn't have to be, anyway. Yes, it's frequently interpreted that way, serving as the male counterpart to "gals" (a sense implicit in Pyxis' original comment), but ultimately the word's only gendered because we decide it is.

The actual origin of the word is mostly lost to the ages (it probably has something to do with Guy Fawkes, but even if so nobody's really sure how exactly), but nothing in its origins implicitly associates it exclusively with males. It's not clear when or how the word came to have that implication. The title of Guys and Dolls can be held up as pretty clear evidence of the word's male-gender associations (at least, at that point in time). However, it's also likely the play's title has been a major perpetuator of that association ever since. But there's no reason we can't reject that implication simply by choosing to agree on a different one. Some of us already do.

As with the word "actor", uses of "guys" in a gender-agnostic sense are growing more common as people divest the word of its arbitrary and unnecessary gender implications. (I'll self-{{citation needed}} here, since I don't have any sources to back me up on that. I've seen plenty of non-gendered uses of "guys" to refer to groups that were not exclusively male, and even seen it used -- by men and by women -- to address groups populated entirely by women. But my anecdotal observations have no value as evidence and would quite correctly be dismissed were I to present them as such. I wouldn't try to, anyway.)

OTOH, with social change being a slow process that's best measured on geological timescales, I recognize that not everyone is on board with genderless "guys". There are many women who object to being referred to as "guys", feeling it an implicit suppression of their gender. Furthermore, some transgender women have shared how painful it is for them to be addressed as "guys", which can be a trigger point for their own past experiences with being misgendered. Right now the word still has gender associations for the majority of English speakers. FeRDNYC (talk) 16:19, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@FeRDNYC: While there are some good points to be had here, "guys" in this instance referred unambiguously to two specific male humans. If one or both of us had been female, we'd have said something else. jp×g 16:54, 6 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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